Transcript by Rev.com

Ari (00:00):
Hey, everyone. I am here with Tore Price.
Tore (00:03):
Hey.
Ari (00:04):
My good friend Tore spending some time with me over the phone today to talk about his experience as a participant in PCAP workshops. And Tore and I go way back to...
Tore (00:18):
Way back. Way back.
Ari (00:22):
To about...
Tore (00:24):
October.
Ari (00:24):
... October, November.
Tore (00:26):
Even September. Yeah?
Ari (00:27):
Yeah, you're right. A long time. Old friends.
Tore (00:30):
Yeah.
Ari (00:30):
I had the pleasure of co-facilitating a PCAP workshop myself, and Tore was inside participating in the
workshop. Tore is now on the outside with us. Congratulations for making through all those thousands of days.
Tore (00:48):
Thank you.
Ari (00:59):
So, my first question for you is, could you please describe your daily routine while you were incarcerated? And then I'm going to ask a follow-up to that, which is, how did that routine change when you had a PCAP workshop in your schedule?
Tore (01:14):
So, my daily routine, and this is kind of odd for me because it kind of changed a little bit. So, when I took PCAP at Cotton, my daily routine was very... I really didn't have much to do. I didn't have a job. I found myself calling home a lot to make up time. And what happened was my day started to slow down. Because I came from Macomb Correctional Facility where I was working Monday through Friday, approximately 40 hours a week. Then I came to Cotton, I did nothing.
(01:58):
So, I did a lot of reading. I called home a lot. So, my days were very simple. They were very simple. And it changed for me when I got to Cotton in August, August 25th, I got to the unit September 16th, and I seen on there that they were doing a PCAP workshop. I couldn't wait to sign my name up because I knew that that would break up the monotony. That would give me something to do. So, I signed up for PCAP, and from when PCAP started and they gave me Piranesi, that just gave me another... and that's the book that we read, and that just gave me something to do. And I just dove right into it and started doing the exercises that the facilitators asked me to do. So, it gave me more things to do. PCAP woke me up.
Ari (03:02):
Something I was thinking about when we were in conversation together during the workshops around
this book was how cool it was that we could talk about the similarities using the arts as that connection, I guess, because there's limitations to what we're allowed to talk about in the workshop.
Tore (03:26):
Yes.
Ari (03:27):
And because of the regulations set by the prison. Do you want to elaborate a little bit on that?
Tore (03:34):
Yeah. So, Piranesi for me, as I was reading and not really understanding what was going on, but I knew that this man was in what I would call a prison. He could not get out. Okay? This was a space that he was in that he had to learn how to survive. He had to learn how to eat. He had to understand how to make it through the day. He had to understand the nooks and crannies of the place that kept him safe.
(04:07):
So, for me, that was my same experience in coming to prison. I don't pretend to be a tough guy. That's
not who I am. And so, I had to understand the prison dynamics. I had to understand the walls that I was behind, and I had to find those spaces that kept me safe. I had to find those spaces that I could adapt to and relate to. And that kept me fed, not only fed physically, but spiritually and mentally, in order to grow. So, that's exactly how I related to that book, and that gave me more power in reading it. They gave me a sense of wanting to go forward and read it, because I kept those similarities.
(05:09):
What I found out through PCAP is that everyone is an artist, right?
Ari (05:17):
Yeah.
Tore (05:18):
Because art is my interpretation. There's all rules and regulations and what you cannot do and what you cannot say. But the truth is, what PCAP does is it gives me, and it gives all the guys inside, and I can't speak to you guys, but it gave us time to get away. Time that the institution, even when we were writing in the unit, time to have our minds get away from the institution and to dream. And to not only dream, but to create, something that I believe the institution wants to stymie, the institution wants to hold down, oppress, and take away. But arts gives it the ability to grow.
Ari (06:09):
Yeah.
Tore (06:10):
So, we were actually annihilating the institution during the PCAP workshop.
Ari (06:18):
We were.
Tore (06:18):
On so many levels.
Ari (06:18):
Yeah.
Tore (06:18):
Right?
Ari (06:18):
Yeah.
Tore (06:26):
Even now, I think that if you take away PCAP... Even in this moment right now, you interviewing me,
without arts, PCAP, you never would've met me. You wouldn't have known me. You wouldn't be doing
this project here.
Ari (06:49):
In another context without PCAP, not only would I have not met you, probably, but I wasn't supposed to meet you. And now I get to, and I'm-
Tore (06:59):
Ah, get to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ari (07:04):
And I get to meet your son and...
Tore (07:06):
Right, right, right.
Ari (07:08):
... hear about all the cool things you guys are doing and how you're spoiling him every day. I would love to hear more about how the PCAP workshop, what it provided for you, and why it's important to you.
Tore (07:26):
So, one thing about me is that for the most part, I keep to myself. So, in prison, while I was incarcerated, I didn't make a lot of friends. And so, PCAP workshop, what it did for me, and to being around other incarcerated people who I normally would not engage with it, it enables me to understand other life experiences, from people who could put together words and rap, to someone who can take a day's workshop and the next week write about it in a way that just really brought it alive. It's just another way it teaches me.
(08:20):
These workshops, what it does is it gives me another opportunity to understand that there are so many different ways to think, so many different ways to understand art. And no matter what walk of life you come from, no matter if you have a single parent, no parent, a parent incarcerated, both parents work, one thing we can do in common is to learn. We all can have an opportunity to learn if it's brought to us. And I'm not just saying learn about iambic pentameter. But I'm talking about learning about, Ari, how you got to where you got to.
Ari (09:07):
Yeah.
Tore (09:08):
And I think that's the piece about education that is so skewed, is that people think education is about
reading a book and listening to a professor or a teacher talk all day. Education is about life experiences to me. And we learn more from human-to-human interaction than I do from any book that I've read.
Ari (09:38):
The way the facilitators, we are trained, is to understand there's a lot that we have to learn and a lot of
people we have to work with on the inside. We're not coming in just about to teach a lesson. That's why we're not called teachers. We're called facilitators.
Tore (09:55):
Yes. Right. Right. We came up as a community, what we wanted to and not tolerate was what we
wanted.
Ari (10:05):
Right. And I think that's something that's often, from what I've learned, denied in the prison system, is
control and agency and autonomy for the people inside being impacted by it. But one of the goals of the PCAP workshop is to give that control back.
Tore (10:22):
And that's what it does.
Ari (10:23):
Yeah.
Tore (10:23):
So, you're right, you're talking about a dynamic coming from a unit where we got to get our pass signed by an officer before we can leave the building, to come to a place where then we can just relax and be ourselves.
Ari (10:37):
Right. Right.
Tore (10:42):
Again, just an awesome piece to understand about the importance of PCAP, really changing the systems in place that cause the causation of violence and crime. And what is that? To me, it's humanity.
Ari (11:01):
Yeah.
Tore (11:04):
Humanity does that. And if we truly had love for our next-door neighbors, if we truly had love for people around us, how can we be violent towards them?
Ari (11:16):
Right.
Tore (11:16):
So, it's the humanity. You guys bring that in.
Ari (11:22):
Well, we get it right back, so it's-
Tore (11:23):
Well, that's good. Some reciprocity, huh? It's all reciprocated.
Ari (11:23):
It is.
Tore (11:24):
The other PCAP piece that I have been involved in is the art show. So, I have never done any art to go to the art show, to the PCAP art show, but every time PCAP came into Macomb to do the curators
Ari (12:07):
Oh, yes.
Tore (12:07):
Right?
Ari (12:07):
Yes.
Tore (12:09):
So, when they come into Macomb, ever since 2017, our food tech program that I was involved with at
Macomb fed them. So, we got them coffee, we made them cookies, we prepared lunches for them. So,
when everyone else, when it was lunchtime and count time, and when all the other incarcerated people went back to their units, my group, the food tech program at Macomb, fed them in our dining room. So, I was always connected to PCAP, and they always wanted to come to Macomb because we were the only place that fed them that way.
Ari (12:51):
Yeah.
Tore (12:52):
The other institutions either gave them bag lunches or I think they had to leave the institution and go
get lunch. So, what food allowed us to do was interact with PCAP and have an understanding of what
they were doing. And so, I was able to meet Ashley and every year look forward to meet her. That's how I met Nora. The first time they came in after COVID, that's when I met Nora. And I met other members of PCAP through the selection committee, the curators coming into Macomb. And it was an awesome experience because, again, we're trying to feed them, and they're giving us all the love. So, it's that exchange of humanity back and forth in a place that doesn't condone humanity.
Ari (13:54):
Yeah.
Tore (13:55):
In a place that is against it, in a place of oppression. So, those were magical moments for me.
Ari (14:04):
I know food is such a big part of your life. You're an incredible chef. And so, food in some ways sounds
like an art form in itself for you.
Tore (14:19):
Again, I think it can be, and it's crazy because my design of plating... My plating is horrible. So, I'm not
really good at plating. But I would say my art form in cooking is seasoning, is taste, is designing of menus and what items can go with what, or what items don't go with what and just fuse them together. So, my art happens behind the scenes, and then when you see a menu, it's like, "Okay, who created this menu?" Or, "Who designed..." Because everything we cooked there, everything on our menu, we did our own research and development. And so, that's where the artistic piece for me in cooking comes, is the footwork and the groundwork before it even becomes a product.
Ari (15:26):
Yeah. Yeah. I know you're big on seasoning. The turmeric. The crowd favorite.
Tore (15:29):
Yes. I'm big on seasoning and putting different seasonings together. My curry chicken is just not with
curry seasoning. My jerk chicken is just not with jerk seasoning. I always add an element to it to be
different and then create another flavor to have the taste buds like, "Whoa, wait a second. That's not
supposed to be there."
Ari (15:53):
Yeah. Also, you're introducing people to, I think, a lot of new stuff when you're doing that, because not all of us are chefs like you. And so, you're teaching us a lot about what can go together and all that. It reminds me of our very first day in the workshop where we did the picnic game and we all went around and said our first name and followed by what we're bringing to this hypothetical picnic. And you had said you're bringing turmeric. And everyone was like, "What is turmeric?" And that kind of was the main icebreaker, I feel like, for the workshop because everyone was laughing and being like, "What the heck is this seasoning?"
Tore (16:36):
Right.
Ari (16:37):
"Is it a plant? Is it its own dish?" And it's those little moments even that kind of bring... To bring some
laughter into the room is also just a part of reviving the humanity, I feel like.
Tore (16:53):
Yes, it is. And I think there was a moment that you had asked me, and I think maybe it was our second
meeting, you asked me, "Are you a chef or something?"
Ari (17:03):
Yes, I remember that. I was making a mental note because I knew you were going to join us out here
soon. I was like, I've got to get some cooking from him.
(17:28):
What's something you think people should know about people who participate in PCAP workshops?
Tore (17:34):
So, what should people know about the incarcerated folks who take PCAP workshop?
Ari (17:41):
Yeah.
Tore (17:43):
People are taking a PCAP workshop for so many different reasons, but they want something. For me,
what I'd like to believe, and what I'd like to believe the average person takes it for, is to find a space
where they can grow, find a space where they can either hone their skill, create a skill, but more than
anything, escape the oppression.
Ari (18:14):
Yeah.
Tore (18:17):
That's awesome. See, that's why I like dialogue, because I think I just answered the question, and that is, no matter what they come there for, Ari, they are there to escape the oppression.
Ari (18:28):
Yeah.
Tore (18:32):
That's what I would say. That's why people are in PCAP, to escape the oppression.
Ari (18:37):
Yeah. And honestly, for the same reason it doesn't matter... I mean, it matters on a systemic level to
stop it, but to it doesn't matter why someone ended up in prison to us as facilitators, it also doesn't
really matter why they want to end up coming in a workshop. They're there because they deserve to
escape the oppression. Yeah.
Tore (19:13):
Ah.
Ari (19:13):
Do you see any growth opportunities for PCAP workshops?
Tore (19:22):
Wow. For me, I think the growth to me comes in with just the ability to reach more people.
Ari (19:34):
Yeah.
Tore (19:35):
I think that it is so important that PCAP continues to use multiple facilities to reach the people. And then I think with technology, I think our PCAP can grow, and of course it's so much red tape to do it. But actually being able to film that final presentation, to film that final presentation and to give people an opportunity to be recognized online by family... Because you know what's a huge thing to be able to do? Is to tell your family, "Hey, go to this website and see the performance that I did."
Ari (20:35):
Yeah.
Tore (20:38):
That's the ultimate. So, I think just continue to grow in other facilities and then do whatever they can to try to record the final presentation in order to present it to society.
Ari (20:57):
Yeah. Wow, that's a really good tangible kind of point and piece of growth. Typically, at the end of a
workshop, the participants are presented with the certificates that they've completed the workshop and as recognition for their hard work and time. And it's also really useful to have this certificate for parole reasons, to show that you've completed something and have made an impact somewhere. You were able to receive this certificate and show your final performance with your son, because based on the timeline of how our workshop ended, you were out by the time we would've had the final performance. So, your family was there. How did that feel for you?
Tore (21:57):
Very emotional. When I look back at the pictures, my son was smiling big time. And then afterwards, I
asked him about it and he said, "Dad, that was a good poem." And the fact that I had his name in there and I could just look to him as I spoke on him, again, I think that just shows... it gives children, parents, siblings just another piece to say, "You know what? What my loved one matters. My loved one may be incarcerated, but they have agency. They do stuff. They do something, and they're important."
Ari (22:50):
Yeah.
Tore (22:51):
When your child can see you in a good light, that just gives them another notch on their belt saying,
"You know what? No matter what people say about my father, he's a good man." It's powerful.
Ari (23:18):
Now, you're in part of your reentry process. What does it mean to be part of the PCAP community since getting out and reentering?
Tore (23:31):
So, for me, and I believe I'm in such a unique situation, but the opportunity that I had of being a part of the PCAP program was the tour that I got of the University of Michigan. Growing up a huge Michigan fan, being at a few Michigan basketball games and football games... I never had been on campus. I've always been The Diag on on TV and The Cube on TV, but never been able to be on campus. So, those moments that I was able to share with PCAP... and that's what I'll leave it at that. I'll just say PCAP. Okay? I won't get into and divulge.
(24:23):
It's amazing. And the fact that PCAP has opportunities for people who were formerly incarcerated to
continue their artistry... What it does for me is it just lets me know that this isn't some study of people
that are incarcerated. This isn't just some, "Oh, look at what we did. We went into the prison and we
saved those people." That's not what this is. It's truly about uplifting and rewarding of people and giving them a space to grow. And I think I said it in my final, iambic pentameter, is that PCAP is not only about art, but it gave me a space to cope. And so, it's also doing it out here.
Ari (25:19):
Yeah. It's definitely a long-term sort of relationship. It doesn't just stay inside the prison, I think.
Tore (25:27):
Right.
Ari (25:27):
Yeah.
Tore (25:27):
Right.
Ari (25:32):
Well, I entered the PCAP community from a different path, but I am so grateful that I'm also part of the community and not only got to go inside and meet you and meet all of our friends from our workshop, but stay connected with you once... because you knew to reach out to PCAP and PCAP was already going to reach out to you, and I knew I would see you again. So, that was one of the best parts and still is.
(26:17):
I asked Tore to elaborate on what it felt like to be part of a PCAP workshop where there were no
teachers, but instead facilitators, and everyone was a participant who was understood to have
knowledge to share and things to contribute.
Tore (26:34):
So, it's not like any other formal class that I've been a part of. Everyone sits in a circle and everyone is
able to be on the same level. And so, of course, in formal education, that's just not the case. You have
someone standing in front of you barking orders or giving you the banking concept of education, and
then just giving, giving, giving, putting in information, putting in information.
(27:02):
What PCAP does from the very beginning, even from the icebreakers, is it basically says, "Listen, this is your space. This is our space. Let's create it together. Let's learn together. And, not only are we going to learn from this information that we have, but we're also going to learn from the lived experiences of one another."
Ari (27:24):
Do you have a favorite program or workshop you've done?
Tore (27:28):
Do I have a favorite workshop? It's creative writing at Cotton.
Ari (27:32):
I know. That was a test. Is there a reason, apart from your fabulous friends you made in it from the
University of Michigan, that that was your favorite one?
Tore (27:50):
You said my favorite part about it?
Ari (27:51):
Yeah.
Tore (27:53):
Just because you brought me out of my shell. I have never, ever, ever written a poem before. And the
fact that I was just writing and writing and erasing and scribbling and writing, I wanted to do it. And so, it just gave me agency to be able to be creative and to grow. So, that was my favorite part, is putting me in a situation to be creative and grow.
(28:33):
I'm just grateful for even this, just someone wanting to understand my journey, someone to hear what I went through. And again, that's just another avenue to be able to get the word out of what's really
happening and what should be happening to the men and women that are incarcerated. So, PCAP's
doing their job, but a lot more people need to do their jobs.
Ari (29:07):
And speaking of jobs, I asked Tore what's next for him? He has a lot on his plate and a lot of people want to work with him. So, here's what he's up to next.
Tore (29:17):
My dream job is working with Pure Heart, because I want to give back to the children, and as Sharell
calls them, her scholars. I want to give back to them the way my son was given an opportunity. The
organizations that sent him Christmas gifts on my behalf, birthday gifts, went to different functions on
my behalf, the visits that we had. It was organizations that made that happen. And I just know the
importance of a parent and their child being together, whether they're incarcerated or not. That ability to have that relationship not only makes it... the recidivism rate goes down when a parent has a close relationship with their child, and the child's chances of coming to prison go down. And so, that means that the community is safer and everyone's happy.
(30:16):
So, I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of that growth, a part of that reunification process. So, I look forward to that opportunity. And then, continue to be around the University of Michigan in any aspect that I can. That is what for me, professionally, and of course personally, just continue to be present for my son. Continue to give him the things, and I say things... Give him a parent at a game, a
father at a game, a coach at a game, someone that he can come to. He no longer has to go to someone else's father for advice. He can come to me. So, it's just being present for him.
(31:06):
And then, my mother's getting up there in age, man. I need to take care of my mom. I just want to give back, Ari. I want give back. As long as I'm dealing with people and giving back, I'm working in my gift. And so, that's what's going to make me happy and make me successful, is working in my gift. Not how much money I'll make, just waking up knowing that I'm helping somebody every day. If you're ready, since I talked about journey, I can go on to my iambic pentameter.
Ari (31:41):
Please. Please.
Tore (31:54):
Called The Journey.
(31:54):
All right. The Journey: An Iambic Pentameter Hybrid. The loss of time due to COVID-19, spirits broken,
thoughts hidden, friends missing. What now? The hands of time seem to have stopped. Fluidity of
thoughts no longer ooze. Nitya, Ari, Sahil, and Nami, hell, what must I do with my Sunday noons? No worries.
(32:26):
Few things have my mind anew. For one, hear those guys in the maize and blue. Let's reflect the years of being oppressed. Must be grateful for moments of conquest. Trials begot hope, then came character. Relations with son has gotten better. The spiritual renewal of mind. Meditation so smooth, like vintage wine. The halls of this Piranesi aren't safe, but my God has blessed me to win the race. My soul that was once lost has now been found. Actions taken today are much more sound. 3,650 days done.
(33:20):
Listen. Hear that fight song of freedom. Hail to the victors, leaders and bests, champion of arts as well as the West. Even after the theft by the bowl refs. Okay, okay. How did that line get there? I believe it was pinned while in despair. Rosy over my new Michigan troop, thorns prickly with 10 years away from Coop. Buds blooming, knowing my future has hope. PCAP, thanks. A space to create and cope. While on campus, keep your vision a clear. This poet, [inaudible 00:34:09] A squared, sometime near. As this incarcerated journey ends, hands-on fathering of Cooper begins.