WCEE Fellow from Ukraine meets with former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine for wide-ranging interview during visit to U-M
On September 26, 2024, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine (2006-09) William B. Taylor delivered a lecture “Russia’s War on Ukraine: Impasse or Turning Point?” at the University of Michigan’s Weiser Center for Europe and Eurasia (WCEE). Taylor, now Vice President of the Russia and Europe section at the U.S. Institute of Peace, shared his expertise on the conflict’s latest developments and argued why Americans should care about the war—for security, political, and moral considerations.
In attendance at the talk was WCEE Scholar at Risk Katerina Sirinyok-Dolgaryova, who has been in residence at U-M since September 2022 with her children, unable to safely return to her home in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine.
It was a special reunion for Sirinyok-Dolgaryova and Taylor, as they first met in 2006 when then-Ambassador Taylor visited Zaporizhzhia during his country-wide tour, meeting local politicians, educators, activists, NGO leaders, and alumni of U.S. academic exchange programs.
Sirinyok-Dolgaryova had just completed a U.S. State Department Global Undergraduate Exchange Program (UGRAD) studying Journalism and Mass Communications at Graceland University in Lamoni, Iowa and returned home for her senior year in the Journalism Department at Zaporizhzhia National University. The university’s student television network arranged an interview between Sirinyok-Dolgaryova and Taylor, during which they covered Ukraine’s prospects of joining the EU and NATO at that time and efforts to address corruption in the country’s education system. The interview can be read in its original Ukrainian here.
Eighteen years later, amidst a drastically different political and security landscape in Ukraine, Sirinyok-Dolgaryova and Taylor sat down on the U-M campus for a second interview on a variety of pressing topics, from ongoing academic and cultural exchange between Ukraine and the United States to what a Ukrainian victory could look like.
The conversation has been edited for brevity and clarity.
September 27, 2024
Hello, Mr. Ambassador. It is my pleasure and honor to conduct another interview with you. During last night’s public lecture, you addressed the topic of Ukrainian victory. This, of course, is a very complex matter. How do you personally see this victory?
First, it has to be a Ukrainian victory. Ukrainians have to own the victory and have to commit to and be comfortable with it. Victory won’t bring peace until all Ukrainians know and acknowledge it. That’s what’s important. The main goal is for the outcome of the war to come from the Ukrainian people. Otherwise, it won't be a real or lasting peace.
President Zelenskyy just presented his Victory Plan to President Biden during his trip to the U.S. To your knowledge, what are some key points of the plan?
We don't know all the details yet, but there are military, diplomatic, economic, and very important security components.
I will highlight the military and security aspects, although the political and economic components are going to be important as well. Zelenskyy is making the case that Ukraine should be able to use all available weapons, including those from the United States, to fire deep into Russia at military targets. And that will disrupt Russia’s ability to maintain attacks on Ukrainians. It will allow for striking Russian air bases, supply bases, ammunition dumps, and fuel depots. I do not think it's going to be the key to victory, but it is going to be an important factor.
The second most important aspect for me is related to long-term security. I expect that President Zelenskyy made the case to President Biden, Vice-President Harris, and Donald Trump that Ukraine needs to be in NATO. Ukraine and other nations on the borders of Russia have experienced 300 years of Russian aggression. The only way to be secure is the path that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, and Poland have chosen; to be in NATO. It's a defensive alliance, with no threat to the Russians. In fact, Russia may be more secure with all of these nations on their border, including Ukraine, in NATO because Ukraine then would not be able to attack Russian territory. The Russians ought to be supportive of this, I would think.
Do you think Ukraine is ready for that?
I do. I am absolutely convinced that Ukrainians are ready and that they would agree with me that Ukraine would be really secure with the mutual commitment for the United States and European members to come to their aid and for Ukrainian forces to defend Latvia or Estonia if invaded by Russia, for example. That mutual commitment is very powerful.
Is it possible for Ukraine to join NATO in an active phase of war?
No. I think the active phase of war is going to have to end before the actual entry of Ukraine into that alliance, which would then trigger the commitment embodied in Article 5 of the NATO treaty—an attack on one is an attack on all. This means a Russian attack on Ukraine is an attack on the United States, as well as on all NATO members. President Zelenskyy has recognized and acknowledged this.
But there are a lot of steps and actions that could start now to make it clear that Ukraine will be joining NATO. First, the alliance could issue an invitation to Ukraine to begin negotiations for membership. There are a lot of technical, political, and security measures that have to be agreed on by all current NATO members and Ukraine before potential entry into the alliance. Second, the Ukrainian ambassador to NATO should be invited to participate in every meeting, including in those of NATO’s military committee, as if Ukraine was already in the alliance.
Those are substantive things, but it would also be a strong signal to the Ukrainian people, as well as to Russia, that any future attacks on Ukraine would be an attack on all NATO members.
As a media scholar, I study disinformation and propaganda. You mentioned in your lecture how Ukrainians are affected and targeted by Russian propaganda. The same is true here in the United States. In your opinion, what narratives are Russian operatives pushing in this very sensitive pre-election time? And what are the ways to counter these messages?
The way to counter these messages is to present the facts. We can tell the truth [with a more compelling message], and let people decide.
The Russians are trying to tell Americans that Ukraine can't win, that we’re wasting our time. We've heard Putin say that Ukraine is not even a real country. That narrative, those lies, frankly, are not new. We've heard this for a long time from President Putin.
It is important that Ukrainians in the United States are telling their story, demonstrating that they have a long, proud history, and that they, Ukrainians, really are committed to independent and democratic values and to Western organizations—defensive as well as economic organizations like the European Union and NATO.
What are your plans for future cooperation with Ukraine in your role at the U.S. Institute of Peace?
We have some current programs with the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian NGOs on a range of activities. One set of activities has to do with President Zelenskyy’s 10-point Peace Plan [first presented in November 2023]. The plan is fairly technical, and together with representatives from other nations and international lawyers, we can provide some expertise on food, nuclear, and environmental security, as well as accountability.
Another of our projects focuses on what will come after victory. Ukraine will have some hard problems: veterans integrating back into society, police forces working in liberated areas, dealing with those who collaborated with Russian forces, and the long-term question of corruption. It is a complicated issue, one that has been there in the past, the present, and will be there in the future. Every nation has to deal with it, and Ukraine will have to continue to address it as well.
Ukraine has to win the war first, but then they also have to win the peace. And we try to be helpful in both those areas.
It has been almost 20 years since you first arrived in Kyiv to serve as US ambassador. How do you recall your time there during both periods that you served (2006-2009 as ambassador and 2019-2020 as chargé d’affaires)?
We met in 2006, that was the period after the Orange Revolution and before the election of [Victor] Yanukovych in 2010, and all that it brought. It was an interesting political time, an example of how Ukraine is a real democracy. There were real debates and arguments. People felt strongly about different sides, and there was a pro-Russia side. It's hard to imagine now.
The Ukrainian people are now so united against the Russians. They still have arguments, and it is a real democracy; but they are united as a nation against the aggressor, it's inspiring.
Have you seen changes in Ukraine’s civil society?
Civil society was strong then, of course. The Orange Revolution was really a demonstration, an example of how civil society can organize. It was a bottom-up, rather than top-down revolution. It was really individuals, along with some civil society organizations, that came to the streets…It was an indication of the breadth and depth of civil society in Ukraine, coming together for something that they believed in.
The world saw it again in 2014 with the Revolution of Dignity (also known as Euromaidan), when Ukrainians said: “We've had enough of this. We really do want to reform. We really do want to get rid of corruption. We do want to join the European Union.” Civil society had been the foundation of these prior movements and indeed of coming together now in the face of Russian aggression.
Given that we are speaking at the University of Michigan, I would like to shift our conversation to address education. I'm an alumna of several exchange programs funded by the U.S. Department of State. I'm so proud of this—they really provided valuable opportunities for career growth and personal development. How do you think these academic exchanges benefit the United States? Have you seen an impact from Ukrainian participants in these programs?
Before I became U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, I had coordinated assistance programs to the region: to Russia, the Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia), Central Asia, the Baltic States, and Ukraine. And these exchange programs that you just mentioned are my favorite. Because they're so good for both countries.
Whether it was high school students on the Future Leaders Exchange Program (FLEX), or hosting journalists, educators, members of parliament, lawyers, or other professionals, Americans have learned about Ukraine through those programs…it has been a great benefit for both sides.
Every Ukrainian citizen is affected by the war, but there are especially devastating consequences for our children. The pre-war period was also very difficult because of the COVID-19 pandemic. In many Ukrainian regions, grade schoolers and university students alike have been studying online since 2020. In-person schooling is impossible because of the constant air-raid alerts and lack of bomb shelters. We see gaps in our youth’s educational achievements. In these conditions, how do you envision cooperation in the education sector between Ukrainian and American institutions and organizations?
I think it's very important that our two countries continue to have exchange programs. Nothing could be more important than the sphere of education—for young people in both the United States and Ukraine, their university years shape their lives. And for Ukrainians, war has made this challenging for all kinds of reasons. So, the United States and others, including our European partners, ought to take special measures to renew focus on educational cooperation.
It is really important for Ukrainian students who spend time at American or European universities to return to Ukraine, however; to help rebuild the country, and orient it in the direction that they want. These Ukrainian students who return will be stronger in their commitment to the values of independence and democratic reforms. It's an important component of what the United States and Ukraine can do together.
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See below for more information on educational and professional exchange programs for Ukrainians, sponsored by the Weiser Center for Europe & Eurasia.
